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Agam's Gecko
Sunday, April 13, 2008
 
CHINA TO WORLD: 'TIBET IS NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS'
Protesters attack
A man carrying a Tibetan flag is attacked by pro-China supporters awaiting the start of the Olympic Torch relay on April 9 in San Francisco.
Photo: AFP / Robyn Beck
A

s China begins to seek out professional public relations help from Western PR firms, President Hu Jintao says that neither his crackdown in Tibet, nor the widespread disturbances which brought it on, have anything to do with human rights problems. He told Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd that the Tibet crisis is none of anybody else's business. "The Tibet problem is entirely an internal issue of China."
China's communist rulers vehemently deny they are responsible for religious and cultural repression in Tibet, and insist their control of the region has benefited its devoutly Buddhist people...

Hu was Tibet's Communist Party chief from 1988 to 1992, a key step in his political rise. He said the door was open for talks with the Dalai Lama, the region's exiled spiritual leader.

"The barrier to contacts and talks does not lie on our side, but on the side of the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama has the sincerity, he should put it into action," the president said.

"As long as the Dalai side stops activities splitting the motherland, stops activities scheming and instigating violence, and stops activities sabotaging the Beijing Olympic Games, we are ready to continue contacts and talks with him at any time," Hu said.
The writer forgot to mention that Hu ordered the last major military crackdown on Tibet during his former tenure as Tibet's Party Secretary, and that was the key step in his political rise.

The communists actually seem to believe that everyone else rules their subjects just as they do. They believe Dalai Lama can just order every Tibetan to follow his command. If you haven't already, listen to him in the extended interview I posted yesterday.

There is someone who deeply believes in democratic principles. He can't, and won't, tell others to "shut up" from peaceful expression of their conscience. He has no problem telling Tibetans that he'll just quit if they don't adhere to non-violent principles (I don't know of any violent incident - violent on the Tibetan side, that is - since he made that statement on March 19). He's not ordering them what to do, he's telling them what he will do if the movement strays from Gandhian principles.

It's remarkable how well China continues to reinforce their critics' case. In their every response over the past month -- to Tibetan grievances, to foreign public diplomacy, to the growing voices of the world's public and civil society -- Chinese leaders seem to be intent on verifying every single stereotype of the communist one-party state.
CCP commissars and propaganda specialists have launched a national "people’s warfare crusade" to thwart the supposed threats posed by "Tibetan and Xinjiang splittists" who are said to be in cahoots with "hostile anti-China elements overseas."

Political and diplomatic sources in Beijing say cadres in charge of organization and propaganda over the past week have disseminated the leadership’s instructions about a "people’s warfare campaign against terrorism" during ideological indoctrination sessions in party and government departments as well as at factories, schools and other units.
I'd been wondering when I'd come across Willy Lam's well-informed perspective on this, and there he is in the Asia Sentinel. That guy has excellent mainland connections.

Today's must-read comes from Isabel Hilton, daughter of James Hilton (the author of Lost Horizon, from which came the legend of Shangri-La long before the CCP "discovered its location") and author in her own right. Isabel wrote In Search of the Panchen Lama a few years after his kidnapping by Chinese authorities. She remarked on the contradiction of the Chinese government's outreach for professional public relations help, while every statement or action by Chinese leadership has continued to reinforce its critics' case.
The foreign press is accused, in strident terms, of lying, while its capacity to report directly is cut off by Beijing. Behind a security cordon, overwhelming force has been brought to bear. Precisely how it is being used we do not know, but when an authority with a violent past reaches for a stick and slams the door shut, there is little reason to be sanguine.
The story of China in the past month is tragic on many levels. Prepared to fling open the doors to show off its best furniture and fashionable new clothes, official China is snarling in a corner instead, its confident image shredded by the real-time street theatre of London, Paris and San Francisco.
She offers, with respect, three suggestions for China's leaders. Each is elaborated on (so go and read it please), but in abbreviated point form: 1) Stop digging. 2) Get some honest advice and listen to it. 3) Take the initiative back. The third is the most important, but it can't happen without the first two. China's many laudable achievements "have been sidelined by a torch that cannot venture on to the streets without an armed escort."

That little flame, housed in a tiny lantern, is the Britney Spears of fire. Highly reclusive and avoiding the paparazzi on arrival at each international airport, she is immediately whisked off to an undisclosed hotel. It apparently must be at least a five-star, given the luxuriousness of her digs in London, Paris and San Francisco. She customarily shares the deluxe suite with 3 or 4 of China's "tall, handsome and mighty" (China News Service, reporting) men of the People's Liberation Army Sacred Flame Protection Unit (PLASFPU).

She has an unfortunate but self-inflicted, almost creepy reputation. Gordon Brown put on a happy face, but didn't want to touch it. No French political figure would be photographed with it. Diego Maradona pulled out at the last minute from carrying the torch in Buenos Aires; likewise Kenya's Nobel Peace laureate slated for Dar es Salaam. It's the proverbial hot potato, on a global scale.

The International Olympic Committee has probably lost even more face than the PRC; it is both embarrassed and intimidated. The IOC won't even officially mention Tibet's name, removing any reference to the word from its Beijing communique on Friday. The IOC president will speak no word of caution to China, and no word to Tibet other than, "The torch will go right through you. We already approved the route." He gently wishes the Chinese would adhere to their "moral commitment" made 7 years ago; yet even this innocuous reminder draws a counter-punch from China. "Stay out of our business."

The PLASFPU squad may still be in business when Its Sacredness travels through Delhi next week, but many Indians are not happy about it. The squad is so far unwelcomed in Australia and Japan. Under pressure from Beijing to completely ban public demonstration of views, Delhi has properly informed them that such things are not done in a democracy. This is a learning experience for everybody, CCP not excluded.

Here's an interesting video report from one of the world's leading flag suppliers in France, now experiencing a strong run on Tibetan flags. And here are some wise words from Duke University's newspaper. The Tibetan people need to be recognised, as any other nation-group would be, in all its variations and diversity -- not pigeon-holed as all good or all bad.
The Tibetans are neither idyllic pacifists nor benighted savages; and we don't need to see them as such to acknowledge either their anger or their suffering. You don't have to be perfect in order to be respected, to have your voice heard. And it's up to us not to use the Tibetan issue as a platform from which to expound our own views, but to listen to what the Tibetan people themselves are trying to say. We all know that the Tibetans are rioting, but do we know why?
It's been a month since the riot but the question still stands, as protests do continue.

As I've written many times, this issue is one that knows no real ideological faultlines (apart from the ideologically blinkered Far Left, and Ron Paul - hmm). The US congressional resolution a few days ago was adopted by four hundred and however many votes, to Ron Paul. The resolution on awarding the Congressional Gold Medal to Dalai Lama last October was unanimous. The strongest Tibetan rights supporters on Capitol Hill are of both parties. People who can't agree on anything, agree on this. Major newspaper editorial boards are nearly of one voice. Including the National Review, though I thought I would offer a small correction here:
What those rulers hadn’t counted on was that the Tibetans would be so very unpatriotic as to require a crackdown just now...
It would be much better, worded like this:
What those rulers hadn’t counted on was that the Tibetans would so love their own country as to require a crackdown just now...
To go or not to go (to the "party" part of the games, the celebration of China's "coming out" as "a world leader", the grand opening ceremony), is the question real world leaders are wrestling with now. There's no hurry. While some national leaders have already announced to stay away, President Bush is holding back his decision for now. This is just what Human Rights Watch is actually recommending to world leaders right now -- hold back revealing your decision until closer to August, while keeping up the pressure on China (publicly and privately) to agree to genuine dialogue with (as Condoleezza Rice referred to them on Friday) "responsible Tibetan cultural and religious authorities."

Here's a rough analogy. If you are invited to some neighbourhood bigwig's annual family yard fair, and those people just happen to be parents who regularly abuse their children (and yet, for whatever reason, all the neighbours are going to the party anyway) -- what about just skipping the opening ceremony? It's just Mr. Bigwig's own self-congratulations show. There's no need to announce your plan months in advance. Why not just turn up late, and still let the kids have a chance to play together and have some games? The Bigwigs' unfortunate kids will probably appreciate it the most.

Gandhi-Dalai Lama
Tibetan exiles carry portraits of Mahatma Gandhi and Dalai Lama in New Delhi, India, Thursday, April 10, 2008.
Photo: AP / Gurinder Osan
C

an Hu Jintao be properly described as a world leader? Can the man Hu has seemingly defined as his enemy, be described as one?

When Dalai Lama comes to a city like Seattle (or NYC, London, Berlin, Sydney, etc.), there are so many who want to listen to him. It's normally a multi-day programme -- with at least one big football stadium event. So many people admire his philosophy that these appearances are packed to capacity. What about Hu?

M. K. Gandhi and M. L. King were prominent world figures, I would say world leaders. If you go nearly anywhere in this world, you will find people who know them at least by name and reputation, if not have some knowledge of their life stories. The very same is true of Dalai Lama. India's prime minister has referred to him as the greatest living exponent of Gandhi-ji's philosophy.

As far back as the early 1990's, in the remotest (at that time) part of southern Aceh (at the northern tip of Sumatra Island, Indonesia), some of my friends had already heard of Dalai Lama. I'm not saying everyone was aware, but it was there (and it kind of surprised me). Again, usually it was by name and reputation ("Ya, I know who that is...") and maybe someone would know a few other details (Tibet, exile, Buddhist monk, etc.) This was the most isolated from the outside-world place I'd ever reached at that time (which still had lots of people living in it). I could be introduced to shopkeepers doing business in towns right alongside the main coastal highway, who had never actually seen a foreigner except on TV. Yet here were others who already knew about Dalai Lama. That's a world figure. His people may be small in number, but that's a world leader.

China does not want the world to see him in that way, and the order has seemingly gone out to overseas Chinese communities to ensure that he isn't. When the University of Washington awards him an honourary degree on Monday, there will be a question and answer session. Some questions will be off limits.
A group of Chinese students met this week with the university’s president, Mark Emmert, seeking assurance that the Dalai Lama’s visit “has no political agenda, and that his speech will not arouse any anti-China sentiments on our beloved campus,” according to a letter the group posted online beforehand.

Afterward, the students posted another letter saying Dr. Emmert had assured them that the university would nurture a "harmonious relationship" with China and "make sure that no sensitive and political questions would be raised" during the Dalai Lama’s speech.
The university said that it had "rejected attempts by the Chinese government to cancel the event altogether."

A student at Duke University decided he would make a solo public statement about the Tibet crisis. Word of his planned action reached foreign students from China, and an anti-Tibet caravan was launched.
Zeng was one of about 45 students who caravaned to Duke from NCSU on Wednesday. He was also one of a handful of NCSU students who recently compiled fliers and distributed 200 copies across NCSU's campus. The fliers include excerpts from "Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth," a piece written by Michael Parenti, an American political scientist, historian and media critic [and Marxist professor - ed.]. In coming days, Zeng hopes to distribute 500 more copies along with a CD he has created, called "Truth in Tibet."
Wai to Tibet Talk, where you can see a video of the Chinese counter-demo against vastly outnumbered Duke human rights supporters. I hope Michael Parenti is proud of his current notoriety and his usefulness to the PRC's worldwide propaganda campaign. I've never seen his "Tibet Myth" crap cited so often as I have in the last few weeks, by YouTube warrriors and the usual, "useful (for CCP) idiots" of the Far Left alike ("useful idiots" was actually Stalin's nomenclature for them, but it still fits).

We do know something of the government's use of "Tibetologists" in ideological work.
"Effective use of Tibetologists and specialists is the core of our external propaganda struggle for public opinion on Tibet... Tibetology research, in consideration of the needs of our external propaganda, must support our propaganda for public opinion. Tibetologists should produce effective articles, ideas and materials for external propaganda. The basic aims of our external propaganda are to counter the Dalai clique and anti-China western forces' rumours, criticism and smear campaigns against our policies in Tibet and to foil their subterfuge to split the motherland."

-from a leaked Chinese Government memo from the Chinese Communist Party's Ninth Meeting on Tibet-Related External Propaganda, April 9, 2001
Cyber-warfare is turning out to be a very important field for the PRC's patriots. Attacks against US government sites, including the Defense Dept., have been on the increase lately, and have been traced back to Chinese servers. Many of MicroSoft's recent security updates have been made necessary by the techniques employed by these attacks. Cyber-attacks on pro-Tibetan rights organisations are nothing new, and when the Tibetan government's information site disappeared on Friday, I felt pretty sure I knew why.
A spokesman for the Dalai Lama said he was aware of the hacking, which came a day after Indian newspapers reported an attack on computer servers of India's diplomatic mission in Beijing.

"We are not surprised as this had happened a couple of years ago," said Tenzin Takla, the Dalai Lama's spokesman by telephone from the northern Indian town of Dharamshala, where the Tibetan government-in-exile is based.

"It is the intention of the hackers to ensure that our information do not get out," Takla said but declined to say whom he suspected.
Always so diplomatic, those responsible Tibetan authorities. But I'll say it: I suspect the Chinese government is behind the hacking attacks, the Trojan attacks, and the denial of service attacks which crippled some of these organisations' email systems recently. A little more on the hacking here.
AFP reported that the website carried 'a flurry of anti-Chinese statements since March 10, when Beijing ordered a crackdown on riots which erupted in the Tibetan capital Lhasa.'

However, Kalsang Rinchen, a former editor of the website told phayul that he did not see any anti China statements on the website. "There were appeals to stop killings in Tibet and allow free access to media. Yes, there were reports of deaths and unrest also. The world's media was carrying reports of Tibet unrest but that does not make them anti-China."
Most normal countries are responsive to overwhelming world opinion. I cite Indonesia during the Timor crisis in 1999. A strong wave of world public opinion influenced many countries to bring strong pressure for an end to the shocking abuse of the East Timorese, following their referendum vote in favour of independence. The Indonesian government (just a year after the fall of Suharto) also responded to this world opinion, and gave the go-ahead for UN forces to land and protect those long-suffering people from renegade Indonesian military units as they withdrew from the territory.

But China is different. The farther they're pushed, the more that world opinion is clearly against them -- the more they feel ganged up on, and the deeper they dig in their heels. What better indicator of the weakness of their case, than Xinhua going full tilt boogie to report every little drop of support they can scrape up -- from Zimbabwe and a few other such leading nations. Most of the overseas Chinese do seem to be supporting the Chinese government, but world opinion is still strongly against them. Watch for motorcycle racers at the Chinese Grand Prix next month.
Former world champion Valentino Rossi of Italy said the riders would meet to decide if they should protest at the next Grand Prix in Shanghai on May 4.

"All the world is with Tibet," the Yamaha rider said.

"But we need to be careful, or else they will arrest all of us."

[...]

Suzuki's Loris Capirossi said the riders were considering some form of demonstration.

"I am 100 percent behind Tibet. We know that to demonstrate against the Chinese regime is dangerous but we will see if we can do something," Capirossi told reporters ahead of Sunday's Portuguese Grand Prix at Estoril.

Labels: ,


- posted by Agam @ 7:08 PM 8 comments

8 Comments:

Pleeease! If there's no more violence from the Tibetan sides after Mar 19, it's because there are riot police! Plus, reporters have been kicked out, and the commies obviously want to show they are in charge.
I notice that the holy man calls for nuclear disarmament in his speech. Guess what his position is on India's nuclear tests?
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19980516/13651394.html
His view on Iraq at the getgo
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E2DB153AF93BA2575AC0A9659C8B63
Doesn't this moral relativeness bother you at all?

Cindy.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 14 April, 2008 09:11  

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"The Tibetans are neither idyllic pacifists nor benighted savages". This is exactly what I have been trying to highlight on my latest blog post.

What shocks and saddens me is the reaction and attitude of ordinary Chinese citizens, particulary the overseas Chinese and Chinese students studying outside China. The Chinese in China are misled by the Government controlled news and media about Tibet, but the Chinese outside have open access to all information on Tibet and China's actions. Moreover they are living and studying in in countries that are vibrant democracies, enjoying various freedoms of speech and right to dissent. One would expect them to support the Tibetans, infact even speak up against their country's absymal human rights records. If Tibet is truly a part of China, would not the heart of the Chinese bleed for the fellow "countrymen".

Apparently, education does not help in cases where there is no conscience.

Protests will follow the Olympic Flame where ever it goes. That's because the even a single ray of sunlight can dispel absolute darkness. Britney Spears and the "Thugs in Blue" will be chased out of town.

By Blogger Aqua, at 14 April, 2008 10:49  

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@ Cindy: Taking the liberty to reply to your comment. No it does not bother me because he is consistent in his views on non-violence. read the entire interview and you will notice he goes on to emphasize that the long term and ''the real antidote'' to terrorism in is ''compassion, and "dialogue". Compassion - something he feels even for China, which I think is greatly undeserved.

By Blogger Aqua, at 14 April, 2008 10:55  

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As a overseas Chinese I really cannot see why you westerners are so crazy about Tibet.May be the head of all this campaign the Dalai Lama is a spiritual man, to you all these stressed out and materialistic westerners he seems to be a God to you. What has China done to Tibet? What sins has
China committed against the Tibetans that you have to spend so much time and efforts trying to discredit China while she is trying to live with the world community, sacrificing western wages producing affordable goods to the world, give you people a good times in the West,
China is a vast Country with many minorities. I really do not think that the sins that
China has committed are any more greater than the sins that Britain and the United States in the past and even now had committed against
China and others (there are too many to quote)
Many injustices had be done against China in the past, like the opium war, where the westerners forced the Chinese to buy opium and subsequently succeeding in conquering her. China was divided into many areas, some belonged to the British some to Germans and whatever. Hong Kong was forced to be leased out to Britain for 99 years for free. Taiwan and Macau were also taken away from her. These were all possible because you were evil by nature, the British are the worst hypocrites in the world, Americans are no different since they are originated from there.
Why not spend sometimes to free 'Iraq" ? I think their case have greater urgency than Tibet since every minute there are people dying there?
I realise that you have a very' NOBLE' mission in freeing Tibet. If ever you people succeeding in doing so Tibet will be exploited by you Westerners, it will become a colony, may be there will be new war zone just like the Middle East. I really wonder what will become of Tibet if it is no more in the hands of China.
High time you take out your masks, we in Asia don't give a damn about Tibet, if the Tibetans really want to 'free' themselves let them do it themselves, it is none of your business.
We Chinese never enslaved people just like the way your great grand fathers did to the Africans. Why not just spend some times trying to 'free' these black people at home, they seem to be not equally treated?
The less you people want to play God the more peaceful and loving the world would be, we in Asia and I think many do not own you for a living (we also do not think that you are capable of contribute anything positive to us).
The trouble with you westerners you have found something very precious in Tibet, may it is the teachings of the lamas, to you this thing is NEW, but to us in the East, it is in our culture .It is about love, peace and so on and so forth. Why come to Tibet to look for love , is it because you have too much violence at home, or you cannot leave with your spouse or children. Love is in you, why not pray to your own God Jesus Christ, ash Him to give you wisdom so that there will be more peace at so that you won’t nose around creating trouble to other peace loving people?. The trouble with you people you like new things, so called New Age thinking, the truth is Jesus is just as relevant today as it was during the Biblical times.
Do you think China will really let you have Tibet? Who are you to claim Tibet? If ever China had done anything wrong to the Tibetans, forgive her, didn't your Christ teach you to do so?
‘Free Tibet’ is a fallacy, it is a big propaganda, look at it the other way you Brits and the Americans do not want to see a strong china, you had succeeded in breaking up USSR, so you think you can do this to China? You self-centered evil minded westerners have read China like the way you read yourself, the problem is you are wrong, China never threw bombs at anybody,
Chinese never travelled to far way places killed the natives and claimed that they had found new territories. Learn how to love those who look different from you, since God has blessed you with brain for technology, use it in a peaceful way. Free Yourself.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 14 April, 2008 19:20  

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Cindy:

Yes there are riot police, PAP (and some evidence of PLA dressing as PAP, hiding vehicle identification, etc).

They were there from Day One. March 10th. Beating, tear-gassing and arresting those monks of Drepung, Sera and Ganden for four days. And then locking them up (where they remain without supplies, last I heard).

Then the riot on March 14. The riot police disappeared, left the streets to them. This is all well documented. A few police (or whatever?) were busy that afternoon, filming and taking pictures. Scroll down in my March archives.

If there's no more recorded violence since March 19, it's only because on that day His Holiness promised to resign if Tibetans were violent.

I'm not going to debate you on his views on nuclear India or the war, not here. He is consistent if you listen. Google for his views on Vietnam war, or Korean war. Or on self-defence, for that matter.

He really takes to heart Deng's motto: Seek truth from facts.

Aqua: I love your blog, now added to the front page here. Speaking of the "thugs in baby-blue", did you notice pictures from Dar es Salaam? Too funny! They hear all the criticism of the People's Liberation Army Sacred Flame Protection Unit (PLASFPU) since Paris. So they dress up some Tanzanians in the same outfit, and have them outnumber the special forces!

And Aqua, I hear your concern about watching for the propaganda content of unmoderated comments here (under the latest post). I had them moderated before, and just took it off before all this started. I sort of take that as a sign. I get an email alert for each one, and I watch them close. I've deleted a couple. It's hard to leave stuff like Anonymouse #2's cliche-ridden treatise.

They want to maintain that the criticism of China is proof of racism. Centuries old racism that never ended. When in fact it's not. People back then wouldn't have cared in the least about Tibetans and their rights. People in 1950 barely knew about them, though HHDL's epic escape to India was a top story at the time. The one-party rulers of China have been making a name for themselves for a long, long time. Nothing to do with race.

And more, when these people throw the racist card, they do it in the most racist way possible! When she says "you westerners" you know exactly who she means. Whitey. "You self-centered evil minded westerners". What she presents as facts are nearly all wrong or misleading.

She plays the black card, to show how racist "westerners" still are. She should ask the new great hope of African-Americans and many others - what he thinks of the Tibet question. Or Majora Carter (a few posts back).

It's full of red herrings. "Do you think China will really let you have Tibet? Who are you to claim Tibet?" Idiotic. Who's going to fall for that stuff? Other than idiots?

It's a closed mind, a propaganda vessel. I know. Somehow she illustrates your point in your reply to Cindy. It's beginning to feel less and less deserved all the time.

But recall HHDL's response to this, in that long interview. How to feel when others hate you, lie about you, call you all disgusting things? He laughs. And (I should transcribe this) something about a "Golden Time." For a Buddhist ready to meet the test of his faith, it's a golden opportunity.

Awe inspiring, and every other kind of inspiring.

By Blogger Agam, at 14 April, 2008 21:25  

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Agam - To understand the reaction from oversea Chinese, you will have to distinguish Chinese government from China. You don't see any oversea Chinese show up to support the government if pro-Tibet groups demonstrate in front of Chinese consulate. However, a protest against the Olympic is perceived to be an attack on China, the motherland of oversea Chinese. That is the reason thousands oversea Chinese turned out to demonstrate. If the Tibetan groups not attacking the Olympic and use "Chinese Government" instead of "China" in their slogans as well as your news headlines :o), their messages will be better received by oversea Chinese.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 15 April, 2008 20:56  

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anonymouse #3: I always distinguish who is responsible for what - citizens and "Global Huaren" for what they do, and CCP for what it does.

But when PRC speaks directly to another state, or to all states, that is China talking. Unfortunate though it is, only the Party can speak for the State, forever guaranteed. They may not be the decisions and statements a majority of citizens would make, but they are in the name of China. That's what you have to deal with.

And in headlines it's common to shorten the name of the government to the name of the country. "Russia to NATO: 'No shield'" BBC has the shortest headlines.

And. When you read some of the stuff coming up now, about attacks and threats against Tibetans and supporters, and the overseas Chinese in every country of the world seemingly supporting the PRC government's policy, cyber-attacks, Western Leftists, etc. - it can start to feel like it's even broader than just generalizing it as China alone.

Interesting that o/s Chinese don't defend the Chinese consulates and embassies. I didn't know that. I thought there were some cases of that; those are the usual locations for Tibet protesters. But maybe you're right, and Chinese would rather defend "China" than "Chinese gov't". Let them protest at the embassy, we don't care.

Or maybe because the international demonstrations of solidarity with Tibet, like the non-violent protests which continue within Tibet, have been going for more than a month now. The big counter-rallies of o/s Chinese just got going in Ottawa (or Toronto, not sure now) a few days ago, wasn't it the first big one (apart from the torch stuff)? More big crowds to denounce Dalai Lama in Seattle yesterday. The word has come down, I'm sure. Demonstrate.

By Blogger Agam, at 15 April, 2008 22:02  

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Oh yeah, #3, I also think you guys take this "motherland" stuff a little too far.

By Blogger Agam, at 15 April, 2008 22:10  

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